Ian Perry: Lady Potter, music is one of your abiding passions. Where does your love of music come from?
Lady Potter: I think from a very early age. My mother was very musical. She was a very good pianist and actually could have been a concert pianist but grandfather said, "No, girls don’t go on the stage" and … I was sent off to learn but it wasn’t very successful (and) I don’t know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing, but as I can play by ear, I never learned to sight-read properly, I never learned to do it; it’s all sort of a pianist manqué. But growing up, even from a very small age, I was taken to concerts because we had the SSO then, and there were regular concerts. There wasn’t a lot of opera but when anything came, musicals, light opera, opera, we went to it and … the ballet of course, and we loved the music side of that. I remember going when the Ballets Russes was here, hearing the Tchaikovsky Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake. It was just beautiful, you know, and you just grew up loving it.
Ian Perry: You had a fortunate childhood. From an early age, you were exposed to a wide range. Sydney’s art scene did have the feeling that it was a special moment in time.
Lady Potter: No, I just took it for granted but that’s what one did because we all did it. I loved this and I looked forward to things, but it never occurred to me that it was unusual or anything. There was Otto Klemperer and there was Dean Dixon and Benno Moiseiwitsch coming out. And I always remember my mother telling me that as a very little girl she was taken to Paderewski’s concert which was almost the last one he did. He was very, very old then and she said he played something and he turned to the audience and said, "I like that very much, I’ll play it again," and I think that was somehow, something you never forget. She was only a very little girl … five or six. And I was being taken to concerts at that age, I remember Bambi Tuckwell and Barry Tuckwell playing … Bambi on the violin and Barry on the horn and then Neville Amadio on the flute and there would be everyone rolling their eyes backwards and forwards because Bambi was gorgeous and so was Neville.
Ian Perry: Does your love of ballet spring from this time?
Lady Potter: Yes, I think I started off going to the "de Basil" … "The Ballets Russes" and then, when it finally fell apart it became "the Borovanski", the remnants of it, and then the "Boro" more or less failed and the remnants of that was taken up and became the Elizabethan Theatre Ballet and after ten years they made the Elizabethan Theatre Ballet and the Elizabethan Theatre Opera… self-sufficient and they became the Australian Opera and the Australian Ballet.
Ian Perry: What was the state of Australian opera at time of Bonynge/Sutherland-Williamson tour?
Lady Potter: The (Elizabethan) Trust founded the (Australian) opera, they took over the remnants, again, of Mrs. C T Lorenz’s (opera company). She was a wonderful lady, she loved opera and said we should have an opera company and she started one. And I suppose all these companies, when they start, are a little bit…simple and then they work up… and then she died, it fell into abeyance and the remnants of it were taken up by the Elizabethan Theatre Trust, and it did a wonderful job for the arts when you think what it started. You know, they started NIDA, they started the opera, the ballet and they started the opera and ballet orchestra, the Elizabethan Theatre Trust Orchestra in Sydney and then they started it down here (in Melbourne) and that played for all the arts. And then of course, Gough Whitlam decided he didn’t want the Trust, he wanted an Australia Council of his own, and so funding dried up and things more or less moved across. I’m not sure whether that was good a move but it happened and we’ve gone on from there.
Ian Perry: What was some of the memorable performances of that early era?
Lady Potter: Well, I think, probably the one that I always loved as much as any was… I think was my eighth birthday and seven little girls and I were taken to see at the Theatre Royal, "The White Horse Inn." And we all fell madly in love with Max Oldacre who was reaching the end of his career and he was covered in sort of orange-tan paints, with a white uniform with gold all over it and sang like a dream, I’ve got to say. Well, we thought he was lovely. I mean, he was a real challenge to Richard Bonynge. We all sat there, "ahhh, huhhhh!" I’m thinking back now… I think that the female lead, it had been Gladys Moncrieff and then it’s been taken over by Viola Tate.
Pre Elizabethan Theatre Trust I remember some of the light musicals because there wasn’t much opera then. Mrs. Lorenz’s company did a Rigoletto I think and then… there was of course ballet with the Ballets Russes. I can remember that so well. I remember practically all the dancers because you remember things long ago, you don’t last week… I mean they were gorgeous. There was Tatiana Riabouchinska, there was Sono Osato, oh, they were just lovely. And Irina Baronova of course and the males and I remember some of the sets. The (Stravinsky) "Petrouchka" one was extraordinary. They did that and then going on to the Trust days … or the Borovansky, they did a ballet called "Icarus" and Sidney Nolan did the set for it and it was a bit like the one he did later on for Opera Australia that had the great blood slash across for "Il trovatore". Well, he did that sort of thing for Icarus but I have always remembered it. You know things like that stick in your mind. And then, just not long after the second world war there was an Italian Opera that Company came out and I saw it in Sydney. It was at the, at the Tivoli Theatre… Now I’m just trying to think the name of their female star, their soprano was Rina Malatrasi. She sang every role and they did something like sixteen different operas. It was quite extraordinary what they did and they were fabulous. They were on every night and we were lucky because… Neil Maver was the manager of the Sydney Tivoli Theatre and I think David M. Martin had him in there and he was great and his sister and my mother were great friends so. So she was given for Christmas a (theatre) box for the season, so we went every night and so we got to know them all very well and they’d come out to us for supper on a Sunday night and mum would play and one of them would play and they’d all be singing and… You know it was stunning!
The bass, a huge man, he was about six foot six with a big, deep, wonderful voice his name was Plinio Clabassi and he went back to Italy and not long after married Rena Gigli, Beniamino’s daughter.
Ian Perry: Was the audience egalitarian at that stage or was it more of a society audience?
Lady Potter: I don’t know I was bit young to know. But no, I think it was bit of everything but I do remember later when Opera Australia or Australian Opera as it still was…were going to have their 30th anniversary…I was running a ball for it. Leo Schofield helped me and we had it at the Sydney Showgrounds. Every time more people were coming we made the perimeter bigger because we had that great big hall and we had it lined with sets. So we just pushed them about and had a few more people. Later we had meeting about it (the ball) with Patrick Veitch, the (AO) General Manager. I had a committee and there were about 16 of us around the table and Patrick wanted it (the proceeds) to go to the slush fund of the opera and I said, "No, no, no! It’s got to go to opera in Parramatta because there are a lot of people out there that love it, can’t get to the opera because by the time they get back for work and then get back into the opera house they just can’t make it." So Patrick said, "Well, I think it’s got to be into the slush fund." So I said, "We’ll go around the table and ask everybody," and I started on the other side and everyone said, "No, no. Parramatta! Parramatta!" So I said, "I am so sorry, Patrick." But it was great because that was the first time that it was so taken out to the people. And we had all sorts of people coming up and saying, "This is absolutely wonderful! We’ve never had anything like this in Parramatta! We haven’t been to the Opera since we left Italy." Because there’s a big Italian community there, or there was…and you know it was fabulous!
Ian Perry: Can you talk about how you use your influence with governments to support so many arts organisations, including Melba.
Lady Potter: It never occurs to me that I’ve got any influence but…you know people so you talk to them and, I think, ask nicely and have a common-sense approach that it’s a business deal. I mean, there’s got to be something both ways, and if you want support which is mostly financial, I suppose, for the arts that’s where they need it, you’ve got to give them a sort of a budget and a sense of what’s going to be achieved. It’s good common sense, I mean, I don’t think you can go in just expecting money. So you talk to them, send them maybe some information before you go so they’re not… you know, caught on the hop. And the other thing is I’m always most particular on writing to say "thank you." A personal thank you is very important, I think.
Ian Perry: Tell me, what was the young Richard Bonynge like in his days as a student at the Sydney Conservatorium?
Lady Potter: Well, we all had the hots for him. As I remember back… He was gorgeous! You know, with all that black hair and those flashing eyes and then everyone was saying "Ohhh! Ohhh!" But he was devoted to his music. He wasn’t really interested in all of us gaping at him. He’s a true musician.
Ian Perry: He’s just the same now, even at eighty.
Lady Potter: Look, there’s a great twinkle, but there is great dignity. He likes people… He’s friendly, and underneath that elegance he’s very kind to people and talks to them, and he’s good… I mean, I see young musicians go up, really coy about "should I even approach him?" And the other one who’s like that is of course one of his contemporaries, Barry Tuckwell. We have so much talent in this country. And you know, if they go overseas and make it, they seem to do better than practically anyone else. I think they try harder, maybe it’s the tyranny of distance, I don’t know but we really, when you think of the population of Australia compared to say, the population of America? What is it, 360 million or something and we’re what? Twenty two at a push, yet we’re up there with them all whether it’s medical research, it’s arts, it’s sport, we’re up there, so I’m quite proud of that.
Ian Perry: Yes. Could you talk about how you became interested in philanthropy?
Lady Potter: Well, again that was just part of my life. My mother was very involved with a lot of things like that as was my father. And we were brought up expected to help if there was something to be done. In those days, quite a lot of the charities would have a fete, for instance, so we were expected to go and help and man a booth and so on. And I remember just… Through the war years, mum and a couple of others at Scott’s College decided that the fete should be called the Spitfire Fund and they were going to raise enough money for a Spitfire. And we were all in there helping, young and old. It was expected. So I suppose you grow up that way and particularly with the arts because we were interested, but also we were involved with the RSPCA, with the Truby King Babies Clinics, with Red Cross, with The Blind Institute. Things were expected and you… Well, it wasn’t really expected; we just did it! I mean, it was life! And then I seemed to get busy with things and then something would come along I liked and I’d think "oh I will help." And then of course, once I married Ian, I got even more involved. But it’s quite nice to put something back into the community. I mean I was lucky I had a very lucky upbringing, I suppose I you’d say, I mean I came from a family that could afford to support me and I had a wonderful education in one of the best schools and I think that stood me in great stead. But I was expected to do things and I automatically did, I mean, I was a junior V.A.D. helper when I was about 14 and after school on two days a week I went over to go to the St George Hospital which was a bit of a trek from where I was but I did it, helping in the wards, writing letters for people or mopping their brow or whatever… It had to be done and I think you realised how many people need help and how good they are. And so it’s just as part of one’s automatic existence if you like and if I’m asked to do something I find that if it’s something I really think is good, it’s very hard to say "no."
Ian Perry: With privilege comes responsibility…
Lady Potter: Exactly… My family background for the last four or five generations is totally Scots and you know the Scots are very big on this sort of thing and helping others. I was very interested talking to Rod Kemp. He said, "Primrose, do you realize how much is owed to the Presbyterian Church for our education?" And I said, "Oh, not really; why?" I said, "I know the Scots value education hugely." And he said, "Because they put large amounts of money in for every child in Scotland to learn to read and this was in the early 1800s." And I thought I didn’t know that. He said, "Yes, but it wasn’t to learn to read literature but so they could learn to read the Bible but it fell on from there." (There is) no decline in the need for literacy but I think with all this electronic stuff and videos, you know, children are sitting, gazing at the… at their "window." And in my day you sat around the dining room and table, you all ate together, you discussed things, you sang around the piano maybe. Now, they’re all in their room with their eyes… on the screen. And you know half of them are really illiterate. They get to the university, they were telling me the other day that some doing a Master’s Degree still can’t spell properly, they’re still not literate. Now I think that’s dreadful!
Ian Perry: Have attitudes to philanthropy and public service changed since your youth?
Lady Potter: I think different sorts of people are affluent now… You know, and it’s "me, me, me" and "money, money, money." And I read somewhere not so long ago that you’ll have to be pretty wealthy for ten years before they are even thinking of putting something back. And then a lot of people say, "Well, why should I put something back, what’s in it for me?’" Well, if that’s their attitude, you can’t say "It’s the satisfaction of trying to help fellow man or put something back."
Ian Perry: What are some of the more significant performances that you’ve heard in Australia more recently?
Lady Potter: The Adelaide Ring. I think the second Ring more than the first. They sang very well in the first but the actual production, I mean, when Siegfried sang, you know, "I love you, I look into your eyes," or whatever it is. Brunnhilde’s down there looking that way and he was up there looking the other way and that was looking a bit silly. But the second Ring, I thought, was fabulous and of course… I’m John Wegner’s great fan. And I went down to Adelaide for several of their performances because I think the State Opera Company there is really good. And I went down for their "Parsifal" which I thought was excellent and then not so long ago I went down for "The Flying Dutchman." It was stunning. It was a really good production and they had three of the strongest male singers. I couldn’t believe how good it was. I’d seen "The Flying Dutchman" about six months before maybe, in London with Bryn Terfel. Well, he sang very well but he’s rather wooden when it comes to acting and the production was dreadful and I thought that the greatest thing about that was the soprano with an American girl who was making her debut and she was great. But the one in Adelaide was just stunning. I mean they are so good! They really gave a run for their money to Opera Australia.
Ian Perry: Would you be prepared to say something about opera in this country?
Lady Potter: Well, I think that the Melbourne audience has been very disappointed since the Victorian State Opera folded because they were really very good. I think, without saying too much, we were let down by Opera Australia or Australian Opera as it was. I think second casts were being sent and I think that some of the singers were having a difficult time. I know in more recent years if there was a Melbourne singer they were told they wouldn’t get parts unless they went to live in Sydney… which is all very well, but if you’re married with a house and children you can’t always do that.
Ian Perry: It’s not well known but you’re one of those aficionados who attends Ring performances around the world. Why do you do it?
Lady Potter: I think I’ve been to ten Rings, which is nothing compared to some of them but you know… I find it the most interesting thing. And every time I go, I see something more in it. I mean, it’s the whole circle of starting then going through all through the foibles of life, the egos, everything and coming back to where it started. That’s very clever and the more you hear it, the more you pick up… Something you hadn’t realized before.
Ian Perry: That’s one of the things about classical music, isn’t it, that understanding is something that doesn’t necessarily come instantly but the more you become absorbed the more you hear?
Lady Potter: And I do get cross with this modern thing with operas of always wanting to do with the battle dress or modern stuff. It doesn’t context with the way it’s been written. I remember (in one opera) a man came in singing in Italian, "And I love my little cart and Donkey" and he was on a motorbike. Well, I mean, quite a few of us have some Italian and there was a lot of giggling around the theatre, but… Then I think they do embarrassing things like one of the costumes they put the singers in, and we go there to hear the music not just to look. Well, I got to hear and you remember the great performances. You really do. And you remember the terrible ones because they were so bad.
Ian Perry: A lot of your philanthropy has been directed toward supporting the development of young talent.
Lady Potter: Through the (Ian Potter) Foundation we like to support young people and give them a go. Ian made his fortune, if you like, because he got a small amount from a great-aunt. She left it in her will and he got it as scholarship to the university and that set him on the way. And so he said, "Getting a little bit of help just when you need it is so important. It’s no use giving it too late, you’ve got to give it when it’s needed," and so we do these small grants and it’s been very successful. I mean, we’ve had people like David Tong. We had Michael Kieren Harvey, sent him off to Julliard and he did so well they offered him a second year, if he could get expenses, so we looked after him. There was one lovely girl Sue Bradley- who went off to study the Serpent and when she came back and she rang up and said, "I’d love to come in and give you and the Governors of the foundation a concert on the Serpent," and I thought this is fabulous! Well, the other governors sort of said, "What exactly is it?"
Ian Perry: When there are so many who are sick and afflicted, when there’s so much desolation in society, how can you justify giving money to the arts?
Lady Potter: I think because it gives people a great deal of pleasure, and if someone is in extremis, I mean, I have a lot to do with AIDS, and I’ll go into that in a tick, music makes a great difference to them. It’s very soothing and if they’re lying in hospital and they’ve got some gentle music playing, it makes their well-being much more and it’s interesting to see that. One of my great friends who’d been very involved with the ballet was one of the very early people who had the AIDS. And I used to pop in and see him every so often and I had to say, "Look, I just came in, is there anything I can do for you?" Thinking, "make a cup of tea, a bit of shopping or something". And this day he said, "Yes, there is." And I said, "What can I do?" He said, "If you can get involved with AIDS because if a few people like you do, it will make it more acceptable…what we’re going through." So I thought, "What will I do?" Anyway, I decided I’d raise some money for it and I formed a committee called AIDS and ARTS and I had all sorts of people in it: Kelvin Coe, some of the dancers. I had people involved in the production side and so on and my committee and we raised a great deal of money each year, for about five, six years and to see what that did was really satisfactory. They were such good boys and there was one. He was the most beautiful young man you’ve ever seen. He was tall, he was Greek and he was lovely and I was very fond of him and he came to me one day and he said, "Primrose, I don’t know what to do, can I ask your help?" And I said, "What can I do, Nick?" And he said, "I’ve got AIDS and I’m going into the full blown and I don’t know how to tell my family. What will I do?" Now I said, "You got a sister?" And he said, "Yes, five of them." I said, "Is there one that you may be closer to than others?" And he said, "Yes, there is." I said, "Will you get her to go with you and tell your parents?" He said afterwards, "My parents were wonderful. I was so frightened of it, but they were wonderful." Well, I don’t know, a year later maybe, I got a phone call. I’d kept in touch with him as much as I could. He was in the hospital and probably had a day or two left at the most, so I thought I was going to see him. I was looking him right in the eye when I said, "We love you, we miss you and we’re all with you." And to see him lying there and the tears just went down his face. It was so moving but I used to take over to him odd music things that he could listen to because he was so ill he couldn’t do things but he could listen.
Ian Perry: The fact that you did this, I think, says a lot about your personality that you’re confident and happy to set out in your own direction.
Lady Potter: Well, if you don’t do it no one will. I mean, others will come on board if someone starts it. It’s rather like if something has to be said at a meeting and someone’s not very happy about it. If the first person says something, then the others all fall in, they just don’t want to stick their neck out and be the first. I think that flows through on other behaviours, too, don’t you think?